On Monday I went to a meeting of the Whitfield Fraternal (Named after George Whitfield.), a group of Calvinist (From what I could tell, they were mostly Baptists and Presbyterians.) pastors who get together for fellowship and continuuing education. My friend Bernard Bell invited me to this meeting to hear Prof. Dale Liid from Fuller. Liid is a fairly recent convert from Protestantism to Holy Orthodoxy.
About his presentation all I can say is that he was gentle and encouoraging and humble. And Wow! Did he ever give an amazing explanation of Confession? Other than talking abot Confession and our need for it, he didn't say much about his own conversion. Mainly, he gave this group of very well educated Protestant pastors a general introduction to the Orthodox Church. He had to answer all the standard questions:
"What is up with worshiping Icons?" To this question he merely described the tabernacle with its images and how when he was a missionary in Africa he saw how tribal chiefs were greeted with bows. He was clear in saying that we do not believe that the person being honored resides in the Icon. But, oddly, he didn't go into St. John Damascene's incarnational theology during his answer. He did direct his audience to St. John's books, though.
"What is the role of the priest in the Orthodox Church?" This is the question that got him started on sin and Confession. I don't know about anyone else in the room, but I was in tears.
"How does your understanding of the procession of the Holy Spirit effect your life?" I won't go into his whole explanation (I don't remember the whole thing) but he seemed to have two main points: The Orthodox read the Bible differently than other Christians, we see the Holy Spirit all over the text; and Orthodox Christians are very quick to accept the Holy Spirit's working of miracles without feeling like we have to explain everything. (This prompted several minutes of conversation on the danger of trying to define doctrine too tightly.)
Now this is the part that I was amazed by. He didn't say, "You should all be Orthodox". (Which is what I would have done. ) Instead, he said "You don't have to abandon everything you are doing. But you can still recover the practices of the early church". And he went on to tell about one of his former students who grew up pentecostal but when he graduated from seminary he was hired by a conservative Methodist church. This young pastor realized that he had to do a communion service so he called professor Liid and expalined that he didn't know how to do a liturgical (Some methodists are still liturgical) communion service. So Dale Liid explained how in the orthodox church the priest takes the bread and before the service even starts begins praying for people, cutting the bread into small pieces with a spear-shaped knife. And how this time of prayer can last for a couple of hours. Well, this new pastor was so excited about it that he told his church board about it and they adopted that part of Orthodoxy as their own practice. And here is what Prof. Liid said, "It doesn't make them Orthodox but they have recovered a little part of the practice of the ancient church." Wow! That was so much better than anything I would have said in that situation. Dale Liid might make his living as a Hebrew teacher, but he is a natural Evangelist.
21 hours ago
5 comments:
He's right. St Gregory of Nyssa Church took TONS of Orthodoxy out of Context and look where it got them.
They feel really warm and fuzzy and no one can tell them they are wrong because they are keeping the practices of the ancient church and never had to abandon anything they believed in - or didn't. All they had to do was pick up a form of Godliness.
Wow.
Or as Fr Joseph said today in his post:
One thing we must not forget: Orthodoxy IS Christianity. It is tempting for us, especially pastors, to fall into the trap of believing that Orthodoxy is an "add on" to whatever other form of Christianity the seeker brings. This is false. I used to view all the followers of Christ outside of the Church as, in a sense, Catechumens. No longer. More fruit is borne when instruction and Catechism start from scratch, teaching Orthodoxy. You cannot add Orthodoxy to Christianity. Rather, it is Christianity. We shouldn't beat others over the head with this fact. But we should never shy away from it.
It can definately go either way. SGN went one way, becoming less Orthodox even as they looked orthodox and said a lot of the right things. But the EOC and the HOOM kept getting more and more Orthodox and eventually saw that they couldn't be orthodox without really being Orthodox.
In my own journy, my first step toward orthodoxy was before I even new there was something called Orthodoxy. When I was still a protastant some people were getting re-baptized after some sinning. Something in me (the Holy Ghost?) was repulsed by the re-baptisms. I could not have explained how I knew it was wrong, but I knew. Becoming Orthodox was not for me an all at once event. It took years of moving back earlier and earlier into church history.
Maybe it has to do with the intention. Maybe the SGN people think of themselves as good people and see no reason to be converted. For me, and I am guessing you, too the closer you got to Orthodoxy the more you saw that you needed to be converted.
I've never understood that verse that says "many are called, few are chosen." Maybe this is what it is about.
YEs, baby steps, and as God reveals it. but neither you nor I - nor the AEOM folks - were told "here, just do this." Got a real evangelist saying "just stay methodist but here, try some bread prep prayers."
Sorry. That's silly. That's not a protestant taking Orthodoxy out of its context to play with it. That's an Orthodox taking things out of context and inviting people to play with 'em. That' s way bad. That's like teaching the Jesus Prayer to a Methodist Youth Group without giving them the sacrametns and the Spiritual Father that need go with it. That's like giving an Orthodox blessing to SGN - we gave 'em the tools and they just misused it, ah well. But we've done our part...
Just shoddy.
I am proud he is my cousin. We had not spoken for 40 some years both being Assembly of God at that time. When we again met, we had both converted to Orthodoxy.
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